I guess what I’m struggling with in this back and forth is that the world you apparently see and the one I see are two different worlds.
I see women all over the place who are taking responsibility, far beyond the collaborative reality they desire, and often to their personal mental and emotional detriment, choosing jobs not necessarily because it’s what they want, but it’s because it’s what they need to do to take care of a family (with or without the dad being there). This isn’t so much society shaping as trying to sort out survival in a society they didn’t create.
Now, I don’t think the majority of men created this society either, and we’re also often left trying to navigate our way through as well, with many of the solutions offered being an invitation to a benevolent patriarchy or even pop-patriarchy, which is why I’m pushing for a different way to approach manhood.
I think you hit the problem is and that both men and women actions do not exist in a vacuum. Every action we take or do not take has a reaction, a consequence that affects both sides. Like you said these women are acting out of survival not longevity. Just like how we act out of fear we get more fear. They are simply reacting like most people. We in this conversation have been pro-active. Both men and women are struggling it's only the very top of society that is doing well. We allow those at the top to dictate culture but we don't have to. All our culture's moments have been a reaction to an event.
No I'm not saying wemon broadly speaking volitarily gave the duty of leading to men. I am saying that there choices also contribute to the shaping of society. So what does the ideal society from a women's perspective in terms of leadership looks like? And what choices will the wemon conciousnessly willing to make achieve that reality? Also to truly understand what the natural results both good and bad will be. This is about taking responsibility. The narrative shouldn't be solely this is a man's problem to fix. I actually like the conversation though on how wemon have shaped men and are we as men tied to that or can that be totally sperated. Until men can successfully create the artificial womb I don't think that would be possible. So agian this about not prescribing what a wemon should be but what role the women plays in the results as a factor. Agian this only applies to the majority of what wemon do collectively not the choices of any one individual wemon just the same for men.
No there is no personal story there. It's purely academic. If we talk about any system we must see how all parts of the system works and why it came into existence.
But frist of all we are simply using generalization for wemon just like we do for men. I don't think all wemon act or think the same. So no I'm would not be making things universal but there are trends that we group and associate things with. So I never claimed how wemon have to be. Infact all ask is what was wemons influence in creating the patriarchy? Also what long term influence would that have and what would require to change that. I simply stated how wemon previously and to this day generally have acted. Also what they themselves ask for. Now this maybe a product of long term patriarchy but then this is an issue. So for this conversation of Wemonhood and Manhood it is logical to ask what are wemons contributions to the shape of Manhood. A good example was a story when an Athena woman after seeing how the men of sparta treated her so nicely she ask a spartan wemon why the men of Sparta where like that. The Spartan wemon reply was "cause spartan wemon only give birth to real men". In short Wemon had a large impact as to what was considered real Manhood. And this can go visa versa as well.
2nd opportunity in outdoor or even certain sports has been an issue because there not much money in it. However in areas where massive amount of money have been spent to open up opportunities is what I'm talking about such as collage. So sure there are areas where wemon could have more opportunities but the question is what opportunities are they actively seeking in large numbers?
But I agree that biology isn't a solo factor but changes to our environment and the way we structure society has an impact on our biology over time. So yes our biology is not destiny because it is not static we can manipulate our biology. So the deeper question is what we want to select for in our biology and what are the consequences. Wemon by selecting the types to procate with has a huge impact on the future biology. In other words I don't see wemon as powerless.
So is your pitch that, broadly speaking, women don't want to lead so they've passed that duty off to men? Just trying to track what I might have missed on the first read through.
It's interesting that you bring up college as women with advanced degrees now radically outnumber men. There's lots in this in the book, "Of Boys and Men," where the author highlights how men are struggling in the modern world and asks what we can do about it. So yes, women are pursuing those opportunities in mass while men are backing out.
So frist off I like to thankyou for making a new distinction called pop-patriarchy I like it.
Now I would like to discuss the 3 dictionary definitions and what the wemon relationship in establishing patriarchy.
The frist his the man as the leader of the household. Why does the women not lead? Well let's break that down. What does it mean to lead? To make the important decisions or maybe it's to take responsibility? What would the women be willing to do to lead? What would happen if wemon lead? Now wemon Brains tend to have larger frontal cortex and grey matter this should in theory make them better leader as they are more social and better communicators. But what do we see in reality. Out of the many books, movies, social media feeds all by wemon are pretty clear. They don't want to make decisions and they will do anything to not take any responsibility if they can avoid it. We now are in a time with the largest number of single mother house holds. We would expect if wemon where great leaders that the children would do the best this however isn't the case. Also this will get Into more later but wemon also typically do not want to be Financial responsible for the family. When wemon are ask How much are you willing to financially contribute to family finances or the percent of bills, the average is around 20 percent. With the highest at 50 percent.
Next is male Governance in society. This should be straightforward. Why are men in most leadership levels of society. Well
it stands to reason if wemon don't want to be the lead in a family the same should stand even more true for culture and society. However quite curiously wemon have had the most impact to culture at least in America. Wemon make up the largest consumer base and famously make there compliants known so if being in charge of culture is a description then we are living in a cultural matriarchy right now.
Lastly is male dominace. Well there is a concept known as hypergamy in where by wemon will always want to have a man that is equal to or better then her. The idea of dating up. Where men will typically date down. It simply that wemon want dominant men. That is what they are attracted to. Would wemon be willing to date down cuase if they are the leaders therfore they are at the top of society therfore any man would be below them. Would they then be willing to down? This and many more questions. Also if not a patriarchy then what? A matriarchy? Or something different? This and many more question your women freind.
Well, isn't that a doozy of a response. I'm going to guess there are some personal stories and experiences behind your opinions, but rather than pushing those buttons, I think I'll start with a story of my own.
A few years back when I worked at REI (an outdoor retail chain) they did a campaign to promote women in the outdoors. For a long time, women's outdoor gear and clothing was less technical and/or not designed with women's bodies in mind. So a big part of the campaign was to up the overall quality of women's gear and clothing.
There was also an ad campaign centered around the phrase, "A woman's place is in the wild." It showed up on a bus that did a national tour highlighting women in the outdoors, showed up on signs throughout stores, and might have even hit a TV ad or two. They also gave staff pins with this phrase on it. I modified my pin.
Using a bit of paper and tape, I made my pin say, "A woman's place is wherever she wants to be."
I think there are two lessons there:
1) When anyone comes along and says, "This is what women are like, what women want, and what women do." they are taking a trend and making it something universal. The reality is, there is a huge spectrum when it comes to women, just like there is when it comes to men, and when you take a common theme and make it the standard of how all women have to be, you are bound to force a lot of square pegs into round holes.
2) There is a huge question of opportunity. Were women less involved in more aggressive outdoor activities because they didn't want to or because there were limitations brought on by lower quality and ill-fitting gear that made more extreme activities some combination of unsafe and uncomfortable? Given how well women specific brands have done, and the number of new women I saw getting into sports like rock and ice climbing, opportunity was definitely a factor.
I think with all of this it is important to remember that biology isn't destiny and that there are a whole array of factors including wounded psyches, cultural expectations, and societal obstacles that shape what we observe and can often obscure the truth.
As for what instead of patriarchy ... I'm going to say the opportunity for self-determination for all and we'll see where it goes. More on that in the next post.
I guess what I’m struggling with in this back and forth is that the world you apparently see and the one I see are two different worlds.
I see women all over the place who are taking responsibility, far beyond the collaborative reality they desire, and often to their personal mental and emotional detriment, choosing jobs not necessarily because it’s what they want, but it’s because it’s what they need to do to take care of a family (with or without the dad being there). This isn’t so much society shaping as trying to sort out survival in a society they didn’t create.
Now, I don’t think the majority of men created this society either, and we’re also often left trying to navigate our way through as well, with many of the solutions offered being an invitation to a benevolent patriarchy or even pop-patriarchy, which is why I’m pushing for a different way to approach manhood.
I think you hit the problem is and that both men and women actions do not exist in a vacuum. Every action we take or do not take has a reaction, a consequence that affects both sides. Like you said these women are acting out of survival not longevity. Just like how we act out of fear we get more fear. They are simply reacting like most people. We in this conversation have been pro-active. Both men and women are struggling it's only the very top of society that is doing well. We allow those at the top to dictate culture but we don't have to. All our culture's moments have been a reaction to an event.
No I'm not saying wemon broadly speaking volitarily gave the duty of leading to men. I am saying that there choices also contribute to the shaping of society. So what does the ideal society from a women's perspective in terms of leadership looks like? And what choices will the wemon conciousnessly willing to make achieve that reality? Also to truly understand what the natural results both good and bad will be. This is about taking responsibility. The narrative shouldn't be solely this is a man's problem to fix. I actually like the conversation though on how wemon have shaped men and are we as men tied to that or can that be totally sperated. Until men can successfully create the artificial womb I don't think that would be possible. So agian this about not prescribing what a wemon should be but what role the women plays in the results as a factor. Agian this only applies to the majority of what wemon do collectively not the choices of any one individual wemon just the same for men.
No there is no personal story there. It's purely academic. If we talk about any system we must see how all parts of the system works and why it came into existence.
But frist of all we are simply using generalization for wemon just like we do for men. I don't think all wemon act or think the same. So no I'm would not be making things universal but there are trends that we group and associate things with. So I never claimed how wemon have to be. Infact all ask is what was wemons influence in creating the patriarchy? Also what long term influence would that have and what would require to change that. I simply stated how wemon previously and to this day generally have acted. Also what they themselves ask for. Now this maybe a product of long term patriarchy but then this is an issue. So for this conversation of Wemonhood and Manhood it is logical to ask what are wemons contributions to the shape of Manhood. A good example was a story when an Athena woman after seeing how the men of sparta treated her so nicely she ask a spartan wemon why the men of Sparta where like that. The Spartan wemon reply was "cause spartan wemon only give birth to real men". In short Wemon had a large impact as to what was considered real Manhood. And this can go visa versa as well.
2nd opportunity in outdoor or even certain sports has been an issue because there not much money in it. However in areas where massive amount of money have been spent to open up opportunities is what I'm talking about such as collage. So sure there are areas where wemon could have more opportunities but the question is what opportunities are they actively seeking in large numbers?
But I agree that biology isn't a solo factor but changes to our environment and the way we structure society has an impact on our biology over time. So yes our biology is not destiny because it is not static we can manipulate our biology. So the deeper question is what we want to select for in our biology and what are the consequences. Wemon by selecting the types to procate with has a huge impact on the future biology. In other words I don't see wemon as powerless.
So is your pitch that, broadly speaking, women don't want to lead so they've passed that duty off to men? Just trying to track what I might have missed on the first read through.
It's interesting that you bring up college as women with advanced degrees now radically outnumber men. There's lots in this in the book, "Of Boys and Men," where the author highlights how men are struggling in the modern world and asks what we can do about it. So yes, women are pursuing those opportunities in mass while men are backing out.
So frist off I like to thankyou for making a new distinction called pop-patriarchy I like it.
Now I would like to discuss the 3 dictionary definitions and what the wemon relationship in establishing patriarchy.
The frist his the man as the leader of the household. Why does the women not lead? Well let's break that down. What does it mean to lead? To make the important decisions or maybe it's to take responsibility? What would the women be willing to do to lead? What would happen if wemon lead? Now wemon Brains tend to have larger frontal cortex and grey matter this should in theory make them better leader as they are more social and better communicators. But what do we see in reality. Out of the many books, movies, social media feeds all by wemon are pretty clear. They don't want to make decisions and they will do anything to not take any responsibility if they can avoid it. We now are in a time with the largest number of single mother house holds. We would expect if wemon where great leaders that the children would do the best this however isn't the case. Also this will get Into more later but wemon also typically do not want to be Financial responsible for the family. When wemon are ask How much are you willing to financially contribute to family finances or the percent of bills, the average is around 20 percent. With the highest at 50 percent.
Next is male Governance in society. This should be straightforward. Why are men in most leadership levels of society. Well
it stands to reason if wemon don't want to be the lead in a family the same should stand even more true for culture and society. However quite curiously wemon have had the most impact to culture at least in America. Wemon make up the largest consumer base and famously make there compliants known so if being in charge of culture is a description then we are living in a cultural matriarchy right now.
Lastly is male dominace. Well there is a concept known as hypergamy in where by wemon will always want to have a man that is equal to or better then her. The idea of dating up. Where men will typically date down. It simply that wemon want dominant men. That is what they are attracted to. Would wemon be willing to date down cuase if they are the leaders therfore they are at the top of society therfore any man would be below them. Would they then be willing to down? This and many more questions. Also if not a patriarchy then what? A matriarchy? Or something different? This and many more question your women freind.
Well, isn't that a doozy of a response. I'm going to guess there are some personal stories and experiences behind your opinions, but rather than pushing those buttons, I think I'll start with a story of my own.
A few years back when I worked at REI (an outdoor retail chain) they did a campaign to promote women in the outdoors. For a long time, women's outdoor gear and clothing was less technical and/or not designed with women's bodies in mind. So a big part of the campaign was to up the overall quality of women's gear and clothing.
There was also an ad campaign centered around the phrase, "A woman's place is in the wild." It showed up on a bus that did a national tour highlighting women in the outdoors, showed up on signs throughout stores, and might have even hit a TV ad or two. They also gave staff pins with this phrase on it. I modified my pin.
Using a bit of paper and tape, I made my pin say, "A woman's place is wherever she wants to be."
I think there are two lessons there:
1) When anyone comes along and says, "This is what women are like, what women want, and what women do." they are taking a trend and making it something universal. The reality is, there is a huge spectrum when it comes to women, just like there is when it comes to men, and when you take a common theme and make it the standard of how all women have to be, you are bound to force a lot of square pegs into round holes.
2) There is a huge question of opportunity. Were women less involved in more aggressive outdoor activities because they didn't want to or because there were limitations brought on by lower quality and ill-fitting gear that made more extreme activities some combination of unsafe and uncomfortable? Given how well women specific brands have done, and the number of new women I saw getting into sports like rock and ice climbing, opportunity was definitely a factor.
I think with all of this it is important to remember that biology isn't destiny and that there are a whole array of factors including wounded psyches, cultural expectations, and societal obstacles that shape what we observe and can often obscure the truth.
As for what instead of patriarchy ... I'm going to say the opportunity for self-determination for all and we'll see where it goes. More on that in the next post.